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Schengen Visas


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#1 SunnyLondon

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 11:05 AM

I have a French Schengen Visa but want to enter a different state. The problem is, the trip was planned to go to France first, and then to other Schengen states but we have to change our plan. So, with a French Schengen Visa in hand, can I enter a different Schengen state first? Or, in our case, we may not even go to France at all in this trip. ;)

Also, the validation of the Visa is for 1 year but the duration of the stay is 90 days (Multiple entries). Does it mean the maximum days I can stay during 1 trip in the Schengen states is 90 days - which means I can leave and re-enter with 90 days limit each time? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Many thanks!!!!!!!!!! :)




#2 Mutly

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:01 PM

So, with a French Schengen Visa in hand, can I enter a different Schengen state first?


You can enter a different Schengen state first but France must be the main destination and you may be asked to show this when entering the Schengen countries and when making future applications.
(This should not apply if travelling with an EEA spouse and carrying the original marriage certificate.)

Does it mean the maximum days I can stay during 1 trip in the Schengen states is 90 days - which means I can leave and re-enter with 90 days limit each time?


It's valid for a maximum 90 days in any six month period. The first six months period commences with the first entry into Schengen states and for that period you can't stay for more than 90 days. When the next six month period commences you can stay for up to 90 days during that period. The next six month period commences with the first Schengen entry after the expiry of the first six month period. You can't stay beyond the final date on the visa even if you haven't been there the maximum amount of days. This assumes that the visa is marked "MULT", multiple entry. Otherwise the rules are the same but you can only enter the Schengen countries as many times as is stated on the visa.
(Again the rules are different if travelling with an EEA spouse but a normal Schengen visa won't necessarily fully document that status.)

#3 Victoria

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:29 PM

If, as in this case, the destination changes, can he really be prevented from entering another Schengen state?

#4 Mutly

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:43 PM

If, as in this case, the destination changes, can he really be prevented from entering another Schengen state?


(Assuming no entitlement under the European rules as a spouse accompanying an EEA national.)

It can happen, but is rare. Like a UK visa, it's not a gurantee of entry and immigration officers can ask questions. Whether and what they ask depends on the circumstances, the country and the individual officers. If a person with a Schengen visa from one country arrives in a neighbouring country it's possible that this is simply a convenient place in relation to the final destination so questions are unlikely.

It is a condition of the visa that statements made on application are true and that they remain the same as the visa was granted on that basis. Applicants will either have an invitation (possibly with a gurantee) from a person in a Schengen country or will have indicated plans such as hotels, and such documentation can be checked or asked for although this is not routinely the case.

Schengen countries are also wary of people applying to a country rumoured to be easier than the destination country due to their own previous inability to fully control "visa shopping". (They place a small stamp on a passport when a visa is applied for and cover it with the visa if granted. These refusals can be hidden by the applicant getting a new passport and the Schengen system only now fully tracking applications.)
In some states there have been court decisions about issues such as not vitising the Schengen state which issued the visa, but they don't bind all member states

For a UK resident who has shown an ability to return (LLTR, ILR, RC) and who appears to have reasons to return the matter often won't be as strict as it would for applicants not already resident in the EU.

#5 Victoria

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Posted 22 June 2010 - 02:46 PM

Thanks!

#6 SunnyLondon

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 11:11 AM

So, with a French Schengen Visa in hand, can I enter a different Schengen state first?


You can enter a different Schengen state first but France must be the main destination and you may be asked to show this when entering the Schengen countries and when making future applications.
(This should not apply if travelling with an EEA spouse and carrying the original marriage certificate.)


Hi Mutly,

Thank you so much for the reply!!! I always learn something new with your replies^_^

I fully understand the meaning of 90 days duration now.

What do you mean "This should not apply if travelling with an EEA spouse and carrying the original marriage certificate"? I know as family member of an EEA national, if I have a RC with exact wording "Family member of an EEA", I do not need to apply a Schengen Visa if travel with the EEA national. As I have been granted with PR, my RC was cancelled :huh: Because I don't have the exact wording on my PR, I need to apply for a Schengen Visa. We were planning to go to France first, and then to other different Schengen states. Since we have to change our travel plan, we may not even go to France now. But I will still be travelling with my EEA family member. Will that make any difference? I can carry my marriage certificate if that helps. :unsure:

Edited by SunnyLondon, 23 June 2010 - 11:13 AM.


#7 Mutly

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 01:11 PM

These are different provisions in Article 5 of the directive

2. Family members who are not nationals of a Member State shall only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 539/2001 or, where appropriate, with national law. For the purposes of this Directive, possession of the valid residence card referred to in Article 10 shall exempt such family members from the visa requirement.


This means that if you have a residence card (Article 10 provides for it) and travel with the EEA family member, meaning that the directive applies, then no visa is required. This doesn't apply in the EEA family member's country of citizenship (although one can argue that it should by analogy through ECJ Singh if those criteria would be met if moving but proving this at the border is not practical). Not all member states have implemented this or implemented it fully. It doesn't apply to permanent residence holders probably because they may no longer fulfill the conditions of freedom of movement (but of course have permanent residence in the state which issued it anyway).

4. Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and residence.


This means that if you turn up with your passport and your spouse is carrying their passport/ID card and you carry your original marriage certificate with any appliable certified translations then you should be admitted. (The marriage certificate being the proof referred to that free movement applies when travelling with the spouse.) Again not all member states have implemented this or implemented it fully and it doesn't apply in the EEA spouse's country of citizenship. Some embassies make reference to this on their websites, you could bring that text too. The provisions apply to EU countries (not to Switzerland and not of necessity to EEA countries Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein) and not necessarily to spouses of those nationals.

In your case, you will be covered by this except in the EEA family member's country of citizenship if you bring your original marriage certificate and any applicable translation. If there are no questions when entering or at any other point in the Schengen states then there's no issue. If so, you can point out your change of plans but also point out that you're covered by the directive. Generally there shouldn't be problems, but it can't be completely ruled out on the forum.

#8 SunnyLondon

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 02:59 PM

In your case, you will be covered by this except in the EEA family member's country of citizenship if you bring your original marriage certificate and any applicable translation. If there are no questions when entering or at any other point in the Schengen states then there's no issue. If so, you can point out your change of plans but also point out that you're covered by the directive. Generally there shouldn't be problems, but it can't be completely ruled out on the forum.



hmmm...why except in the EEA family member's country of citizenship? this is interesting... :blink:

#9 SunnyLondon

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 03:07 PM

It sounds like there is no excuse not going to France first now..lol

Maybe a day trip to Calais/Paris before our main trip would help ;) B)

#10 Mutly

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Posted 23 June 2010 - 07:43 PM

hmmm...why except in the EEA family member's country of citizenship? this is interesting... :blink:


The rules on freedom of movement only apply to EEA nationals and their family members outside the EEA national's country of citizenship and enable movement within the EEA. The citizen spouse has a right of abode in that country under national law and entry and stay of their family members is government by the national law (with the exception of ECJ Singh when the family have already resided in another EEA state and the EEA national was employed or self-employed there).

It sounds like there is no excuse not going to France first now..lol

Maybe a day trip to Calais/Paris before our main trip would help ;) B)


It may assist but may not make any difference. Although it can't be guranteed on the forum, you shouldn't have any problems.




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