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Regarding child's nationality, settled status.


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#1 Arohemq

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 12:49 PM

Hi,

My daughter was born in the UK last December and I have a query regarding her right to British nationality.
I'm Portuguese and have been exercising Treaty Rights of Residence in the UK since June 1999 while my wife is Austrian and exercising Treaty Rights of Residence since February 2005. We're married in the UK in Sept 2006.
Neither my wife nor I have Settled Status or British citizenship.

I've just completed form EEA3 to officially obtain "Settled Status" for myself only as I believe that this will then allow my daughter to obtain British nationality. As I understand it, she isn't automatically British unless one of the parents has settled status. Am I wrong to believe this?

Should I have been with "Settled Status" before my daughter was born?

Thanks!

Edited by Arohemq, 07 March 2008 - 12:52 PM.




#2 vinny

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Posted 07 March 2008 - 11:00 PM

Neither my wife nor I have Settled Status or British citizenship.

I've just completed form EEA3 to officially obtain "Settled Status" for myself only as I believe that this will then allow my daughter to obtain British nationality.


Note that Applying under European law:

Permanent residence

After you have lived in the United Kingdom for a continuous period of five years you can apply for confirmation of your permanent residence. You will need to have been living in the United Kingdom and in employment, self-employment, studying or self-sufficient throughout the five year period.

For your residence in the United Kingdom to be considered continuous you should not be absent from the United Kingdom for more than six months each year. Longer absences for compulsory military service will not affect your residence. Additionally, a single absence of a maximum of 12 months for important reasons such as pregnancy, child birth, serious illness, study, vocational training or posting overseas will not affect your residence.


Applying for EEA3 just gives confirmation of permanent residence. If you have been exercising your treaty rights since 1999, then you would have already automatically attained a Permanent right of residence when your daughter was born.

If you can demonstrate that you had attained a Permanent right of residence when your daughter was born, then she is a British citizen under section 1(1)(b ).

#3 JAJ

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 12:16 AM

Hi,

My daughter was born in the UK last December and I have a query regarding her right to British nationality.
I'm Portuguese and have been exercising Treaty Rights of Residence in the UK since June 1999 while my wife is Austrian and exercising Treaty Rights of Residence since February 2005. We're married in the UK in Sept 2006.
Neither my wife nor I have Settled Status or British citizenship.

I've just completed form EEA3 to officially obtain "Settled Status" for myself only as I believe that this will then allow my daughter to obtain British nationality. As I understand it, she isn't automatically British unless one of the parents has settled status. Am I wrong to believe this?

Should I have been with "Settled Status" before my daughter was born?


You became a Permanent Resident on 30 April 2006, so your daughter is automatically British by birth. You might wish to get a letter from the Home Office confirming her status because it may be difficult to prove later on in life.

She is also Portuguese, and also Austrian. Portugal allows dual citizenship, Austria doesn't usually but does where the child is dual Austrian/other at birth.

Does your wife want to become a British citizen?

#4 Arohemq

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 11:36 AM

Thanks first of all for your replies! :)

Applying for EEA3 just gives confirmation of permanent residence. If you have been exercising your treaty rights since 1999, then you would have already automatically attained a Permanent right of residence when your daughter was born.
If you can demonstrate that you had attained a Permanent right of residence when your daughter was born, then she is a British citizen under section 1(1)(b ).

You became a Permanent Resident on 30 April 2006, so your daughter is automatically British by birth. You might wish to get a letter from the Home Office confirming her status because it may be difficult to prove later on in life.

Aha...I thought one would have to first have the "Settled Status" officially before she could be British.
I'm hoping for more than a letter from the Home Office! I'm trying to obtain a passport for her before August as we wish to travel out of the country in July.
Therefore, I'm still going about this the correct way? i.e. obtaining a document confirming my Permanent right of Residence. With this I can then approach the Home Office in order to obtain her passport?
Since my EEA3 form also contained a letter from my employer, my last 3 payslips and last 7 P60s, all originals, I don't think I have anything to show the Home Office until I get these back! But then I'll have the Settled Status document. Have I delayed myself inadvertently?

She is also Portuguese, and also Austrian. Portugal allows dual citizenship, Austria doesn't usually but does where the child is dual Austrian/other at birth.

Correct, my daughter has the right to obtain both Austrian & Portuguese citizenships. Now for some TMI...
However, the Austrians are not accepting the format of the names we have given her i.e. 2 surnames; my wife's surname and my surname which is customary in Portugal (no, not double-barrelled nor hyphenated). They will only accept 1 surname, either the father's or the mother's but not both. We believe we will have to pursue this legally through the European courts (!) as there is a precedent already set in the case of dual nationals.

The process to obtain Portuguese citizenship is currently stalled due to an error between the consular services in London and the central archives in Lisbon (registering my marriage of all things!). Therefore, I have not even been able to register her birth with the consulate in London; possibly only by the end of this month. The consular services then estimated that they could begin the process of her obtaining a national ID and then passport from July onwards. Or I could simply fly to Lisbon, with both wife & child in tow, with a salvo conducto for my daughter from the consulate and try kick-start everything directly in Portugal! Expensive... :angry: .

Then there's the fact that I'm also South African by birth despite never ever holding a SA passport. And yes, my daughter qualifies for SA citizenship, too. Ahem.
Nah, I shan't be bothering. I would have to get my passport first then register her birth then zzzz :blink: .

Does your wife want to become a British citizen?

No, the process to obtain one has become more expensive with the only advantage for her being able to vote in parliamentary elections. We both already vote in the locals. I actually had thought of becoming British but again, the expense and hassle vs. the benefits has not convinced me. I should have before April 2006!
Unless you think there are more advantages...? It then becomes a case of "value" rather than identity, subverting the whole concept behind nationality? :unsure:

I believe my daughter should have the British nationality as it helps with integration and a sense of identity when she grows up. Parents provide "cultural heritage" :) I bring in my own experience being born in one country while holding another nationality.

But right now, it is a question of which can provide her with a passport before July...

#5 JAJ

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Posted 09 March 2008 - 07:23 PM

Aha...I thought one would have to first have the "Settled Status" officially before she could be British.
I'm hoping for more than a letter from the Home Office! I'm trying to obtain a passport for her before August as we wish to travel out of the country in July.
Therefore, I'm still going about this the correct way? i.e. obtaining a document confirming my Permanent right of Residence. With this I can then approach the Home Office in order to obtain her passport?
Since my EEA3 form also contained a letter from my employer, my last 3 payslips and last 7 P60s, all originals, I don't think I have anything to show the Home Office until I get these back! But then I'll have the Settled Status document. Have I delayed myself inadvertently?



Between 2 October 2000 and 29 April 2006, those from other EEA states could only get "settled status" by making an application (with few exceptions). On 30 April 2006, all of that changed and Permanent Residence became something automaticallu acquired.

The Passport Office issues British passports. They knowledge of British nationality law is sometimes - once you move away from the most common areas - let's say, a little hazy at times.

Hence, there would be nothing stopping you applying directly to the Passport Office for your daughter's British passport without a confirmation letter from the Home Office. However, there have been stories of people in your situation being told (wrongly) by Passport Office officials that their children are not British citizens. If you look at the Passport Office website you will see that the information on eligibility is very limited.

You should be aware that you should get your daughter a letter from the Home Office confirming her status as well as a British passport (it doesn't matter in which order). The reason for this is that should her passport ever be lost/stolen she would have to prove her status again : possibly a real problem in 15-20 years time.

Unfortunately for you, if you have sent off documents proving your settled status for your EEA3 application, you have no proof that your daughter is British, so you can't apply for a passport for her right now. Can you get duplicates?



Correct, my daughter has the right to obtain both Austrian & Portuguese citizenships. Now for some TMI...
However, the Austrians are not accepting the format of the names we have given her i.e. 2 surnames; my wife's surname and my surname which is customary in Portugal (no, not double-barrelled nor hyphenated). They will only accept 1 surname, either the father's or the mother's but not both. We believe we will have to pursue this legally through the European courts (!) as there is a precedent already set in the case of


Interesting. Notwithstanding that, I would suspect she is already an Austrian citizen regardless.


The process to obtain Portuguese citizenship is currently stalled due to an error between the consular services in London and the central archives in Lisbon (registering my marriage of all things!). Therefore, I have not even been able to register her birth with the consulate in London; possibly only by the end of this month. The consular services then estimated that they could begin the process of her obtaining a national ID and then passport from July onwards. Or I could simply fly to Lisbon, with both wife & child in tow, with a salvo conducto for my daughter from the consulate and try kick-start everything directly in Portugal! Expensive..


Again, interesting. You say below that you were born in South Africa so as far as I can tell your child is not a Portuguese citizen until the registration process is completed.

I had a quick look at the Austrian Nationality Act of 1985 ... I don't know if it has since been amended since, but as far as I can tell, registration as a Portuguese citizen will cause your child to lose Austrian citizenship unless approval is obtained in advance from the Austrian authorities.
There's a link to the Act at: http://en.wikipedia....nationality_law

If this is important, I suggest you or your wife contacts the Austrian Embassy.


Then there's the fact that I'm also South African by birth despite never ever holding a SA passport. And yes, my daughter qualifies for SA citizenship, too. Ahem.
Nah, I shan't be bothering. I would have to get my passport first then register her birth then


The South African passport is worth increasingly little as time goes on. Bear in mind that if you decide to take out British citizenship, you will lose your South African citizenship unless you get permission to keep it in advance.

Also bear in mind that if you go to South Africa while you are still a citizen, you are expected to enter and leave on a South African passport.



No, the process to obtain one [British citizenship] has become more expensive with the only advantage for her being able to vote in parliamentary elections. We both already vote in the locals. I actually had thought of becoming British but again, the expense and hassle vs. the benefits has not convinced me. I should have before April 2006!
Unless you think there are more advantages...? It then becomes a case of "value" rather than identity, subverting the whole concept behind nationality?


You could have become British in 2004 if you had applied for "settled status" in 2003 (under the old rules). The fees went up in April 2007.

Day to day, there are not many additional advantages to being British - voting rights, Civil Service employment, British passport, and exemption from deportation - these are the ones that come to mind. Longer term, if Britain were to withdraw from the European Union (something that would be foolish to rule out, when one considers how poorly the U.K. "fits" into the EU), your status would more protected if you were already a British citizen.

For your wife, can she get permission from the Austrians to become a British citizen and keep Austrian citizenship?

#6 Arohemq

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 05:20 AM

The Passport Office issues British passports. They knowledge of British nationality law is sometimes - once you move away from the most common areas - let's say, a little hazy at times.

Hence, there would be nothing stopping you applying directly to the Passport Office for your daughter's British passport without a confirmation letter from the Home Office. However, there have been stories of people in your situation being told (wrongly) by Passport Office officials that their children are not British citizens. If you look at the Passport Office website you will see that the information on eligibility is very limited.

I do apologise for my very tardy reply in getting back to this thread to thank you, JAJ & Vinny, for your assistance.

Many thanks! :) After reading your reply on the 9th I again phoned up the passport offices on the 10th. A few to-ing and fro-ing between the naturalisation & passport offices (5 calls!) and I did indeed get confirmation of what you stated above.
Interestingly, the Settled Status document is apparently meaningless to the passport office! 3 different people were doubtful it would help at all.
And of course, all the other documents they do recognise and I need are tied up in my EEA3 application. Waiting for duplicates might be faster

I received a passport application from them in the post (too lazy to walk to the PO). I phoned them up regarding a few queries I had on some sections but it looks like I should be able to obtain a passport in about 3 weeks once I apply.

I will follow up up on getting that confirmation letter from the Home Office, too.

*sigh* Now if only I had been given the correct advice from the start!
Again, many thanks for your kind advice! :thumbup:

Edited by Arohemq, 23 March 2008 - 05:21 AM.


#7 Arohemq

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 05:35 AM

The South African passport is worth increasingly little as time goes on. Bear in mind that if you decide to take out British citizenship, you will lose your South African citizenship unless you get permission to keep it in advance.
Also bear in mind that if you go to South Africa while you are still a citizen, you are expected to enter and leave on a South African passport.


Yes, I'm aware of the fact that SAfricans now require their government's permission to acquire another nationality. My brother's partner is an Afrikaner who had her British citizenship path stall just before the dramatic price increase in April 2007 because she found out (just in time!) that she had to first obtain this permission otherwise she would have automatically forfeited her SAfrican nationality. She wasn't very happy that it caused her to shell out far more than she had planned.

In 2000 I recall being mildly rebuked by an immigration official when entering via Jo'burg Int Airport about not having a SAfrican passport but nothing came of it. My brother travelled in and out of SA in 2005 and was resoundly rebuked upon entering but nothing came of it, too.
I travelled again to SA in Oct 2006 for a 3 week holiday aware of this and so said nothing about being a SA citizen and absolutely nothing was said to me. I'm not sure how they would check though...? My name in its 5 name configuration is certainly unique but my Pt passport number was issued in Portugal in '05 and had never been within SA before whereas when I travelled in 2000 I had had a Pt passport issued by consular services in Jo'burg in '95 registering an exit in '99? Since I originally left SA in '87 my accent is fairly neutral and sometimes it's hard to discern I'm SAfrican.

Below, taken from "http://www.embaixada.../consular.html"
In terms of the South African Citizenship Amendment Act of 2004, which came into effect on 15 September 2004, it is now an offence for a SAfrican citizen to enter the Republic or depart making use of the passport of another country. Essentially, the Amendment Act provides that a SAfrican citizen, who has dual citizenship or nationality, can freely use his or her foreign passport outside South Africa.

The Act repealed the provision which allowed the Minister of Home Affairs to deprive a citizen of his citizenship for having used the citizenship of a foreign country. Consequently, the previous requirement for exemptions or letters of permission from the Ministry of Home Affairs to make use of a foreign passport has now been terminated. The issue of deprivation of citizenship was inconsistent with the Constitutional right to citizenship.
As many affected South Africans may not yet be aware of the amendments to the Citizenship Act and the implications for themselves, it was decided that South Africans departing or arriving through South Africa's port of entry, attempting to use a foreign passport, will be issued with a warning giving them three months to obtain a South African passport
.

I'm still not very sure about what penalties one suffers if one doesn't comply with this if depriving citizenship in this way is unconstitutional? I suppose refusal of entry or departure at the very least.

Last year I visited the SA High Commission in London to obtain a power of attorney authenticated for use in SA and was told off the record that I really only should be able to make use of these services if I was a SA passport holder and not just the SA national ID. In any event, the document was recognised with a note that I was identified with a Pt passport.
My brother and his partner are travelling to SA at the end of this month and I don't remember him saying he had a SA passport. I'll ask him later! (it's 5am at the moment ;-) )
At some stage I will apply for a SA passport but not anytime soon.


... I would suspect she is already an Austrian citizen regardless.but as far as I can tell, registration as a Portuguese citizen will cause your child to lose Austrian citizenship unless approval is obtained in advance from the Austrian authorities.


Correct, she is one automatically by virtue of my wife. It's the documentation that's proving tricky. There doesn't appear to be anything impeding her obtaining documentation confirming she is an Austrian citizen as such, and it is actually quite easy. The problem lies with her name. They are refusing to accept the Austrian surname, too. Odd since I'm trying to preserve the Austrian surname.
And as far as we could ascertain, she can be and will be a dual Luso-Austro national without issue because of her parentage. We are, however, concerned about her obtaining further nationalities and how this impacts her Austrian nationality. Currently we're looking at 3 nationalities for her seeing as we are getting her a British passport. We don't necessarily want her to hold Pt & Austrian passports but we would like to ensure her these nationalities. The SA nationality is not being considered at all.

For your wife, can she get permission from the Austrians to become a British citizen and keep Austrian citizenship?

I recall her looking into this a year or so ago, in fact, we used the same wiki entry you've shown, and I think it is possible albeit through a cumbersome process. But my memory is hazy... :blink: I'll ask her gain when it's daylight ;-)

You say below that you were born in South Africa so as far as I can tell your child is not a Portuguese citizen until the registration process is completed.

As I understand it, my daughter will still qualify as a "Natural Portuguese" so long as I register her with the Portuguese Registry Office, via consular representation or if I fly in and do so myself. I obtained my nationality by virtue of the fact that my parents are Portuguese born in Portugal. I think in 2006 things were made easier for descendants i.e. Portuguese nationals not born in Portugal "conferring" their nationality onto their offspring. I'm not sure up to which generation this is possible or if such a limitation exists.

#8 JAJ

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 06:34 AM

Last year I visited the SA High Commission in London to obtain a power of attorney authenticated for use in SA and was told off the record that I really only should be able to make use of these services if I was a SA passport holder and not just the SA national ID. In any event, the document was recognised with a note that I was identified with a Pt passport.
My brother and his partner are travelling to SA at the end of this month and I don't remember him saying he had a SA passport. I'll ask him later! (it's 5am at the moment ;-) )
At some stage I will apply for a SA passport but not anytime soon.


If you want to become a British citizen and also have a South African passport you should apply for that permission to naturalise as soon as possible.

Of course, if you become British without that citizenship, your South African citizenship lapses and then you would be allowed to travel into South Africa on a foreign passport. It might be a good idea to get a confirmation (of loss of South African citizenship) from the South African High Commission that you could keep a copy of in your British or Portuguese passport. You could also send a copy to the Foreign Office as proof of your right to British consular protection in South Africa (which you don't have if you are a South African citizen).



.... I would suspect she is already an Austrian citizen regardless.but as far as I can tell, registration as a Portuguese citizen will cause your child to lose Austrian citizenship unless approval is obtained in advance from the Austrian authorities.

Correct, she is one automatically by virtue of my wife. It's the documentation that's proving tricky. There doesn't appear to be anything impeding her obtaining documentation confirming she is an Austrian citizen as such, and it is actually quite easy. The problem lies with her name. They are refusing to accept the Austrian surname, too. Odd since I'm trying to preserve the Austrian surname.
And as far as we could ascertain, she can be and will be a dual Luso-Austro national without issue because of her parentage. We are, however, concerned about her obtaining further nationalities and how this impacts her Austrian nationality. Currently we're looking at 3 nationalities for her seeing as we are getting her a British passport. We don't necessarily want her to hold Pt & Austrian passports but we would like to ensure her these nationalities. The SA nationality is not being considered at all.



You should investigate this further but my reading of the Austrian Nationality Act is that since your daughter would apparently be acquiring Portuguese citizenship, rather than just obtaining a passport (as is the case with her British citizenship) that she would risk losing her Austrian citizenship as a result. You may want to investigate if this is in fact the case and if so, if there is any way to retain Austrian citizenship.

#9 Arohemq

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Posted 24 March 2008 - 04:18 AM

You should investigate this further but my reading of the Austrian Nationality Act is that since your daughter would apparently be acquiring Portuguese citizenship, rather than just obtaining a passport (as is the case with her British citizenship) that she would risk losing her Austrian citizenship as a result. You may want to investigate if this is in fact the case and if so, if there is any way to retain Austrian citizenship.


Hmmm...I see your point. I'll ask my wife to investigate this with the Austrian authorities. Thanks!

edit: And here I thought I would just get advice as regards the British nationality/passport ;)

Edited by Arohemq, 24 March 2008 - 04:20 AM.


#10 Arohemq

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 03:40 PM

As regards the South African theme within this thread:

Also bear in mind that if you go to South Africa while you are still a citizen, you are expected to enter and leave on a South African passport.


My brother travelled in and out of SA in 2005 and was resoundly rebuked upon entering but nothing came of it


Actually, as it turns out, they had stamped his passport with a "section 26 ( b ) violation warning".
He has just returned from his holiday and told me that he had no issues entering South Africa. However, on his way out an immigration official bristled at his lack of SA passportness and was rather sticky. My brother feigned surprise but was pointed to the warning made 3 years prior. Ok, he really hadn't noticed the warning stamped inside his passport so his surprise was genuine, of sorts. At any rate, much admonishing and finger wagging later, plus a 2nd warning stamp in his Pt passport and he was allowed to continue.
If the official had decided to be nasty he could have prevented his departure. That would mean a lengthy delay to apply for a passport in ZA itself. At any rate, my brother had already begun the process for an application to get his ZA passport earlier this year but was still awaiting a copy of his ZA birth certificate when he travelled. Ah well, we'll all be ready next time we travel.

Thought you might be interested to know about this stamping of section 26 ( b ) violation warnings since you probably field many questions from South Africans in this forum.




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